Louis Proyect: The Unrepentant Marxist

September 3, 2008

Excluding Reds from SDS?

Filed under: revolutionary organizing,sectarianism — louisproyect @ 6:39 pm

Some important issues have been raised on the Kasama blog by Mike Ely about anti-communist exclusionary policies in the new SDS.

The first entry, dated August 31, was titled “SDS: Ideology, Agendas and Raw Anti-Communism” and published an interview with SDS member Rachel Haut that originally appeared in Platypus, an online publication.

Ely prefaces the interview with the following comments:

The following interview appeared in platypus1917.org. It focuses heavily on Rachel Haut’ belief that communist politics have no legitimate place within a movement for an alternative society. Her discussion lumps some very diverse forces together under a single label “Maoists” i – but that superficial and questionable generalization is part of the overall anti-communist method. The interview raises issues about the meaning of democracy, the kind of society that should replace this one, and whether communists have “agendas” and “ideology” (while presumably non-communist democrats do not).

It also raises the question of how this approach of pressuring Obama is linked to a particular (and anti-communist) view of “democracy.”

Laurie Rojas is a member of Chicago SDS and editor of The Platypus Review. Rachel Haut is a member of the New York non-student SDS chapter. Both are participating in the Hundred Days campaign- which plans to mobilize people in the first hundred days of the next administration to put pressure on Barack Obama and the Democratic Party.

Haut’s interview expresses a need not just to exclude “Maoists” but “crazy anarchists” as well:

However, I think it is inappropriate to have conversations about ideological differences when we still have Maoists in the organization. Why should we be having these conversations with them, including them in the discussion, if their ideology is in direct opposition to building a democratic society? To say that the Maoists can be part of the ideological debate would mean to condone them being in this organization, which is something I don’t do. In the New York City SDS I have spoken numerous times with SDSers who are not Maoists about having the Maoists or certain kinds of anarchists in our organization, because both sides hurt us. If we want to build a democratic society, and we want to be relevant, both of these opposing forces are working against us. There are varying degrees of anarchism, definitely, as well as varying degrees of socialism. But, I think ideas that conflict with our vision and our goals need to be clearly defined and excluded before we can actually start talking about our ideological differences formally as a national organization.

It is a little hard for me to judge the role of anarchists in SDS but I am somewhat surprised by this characterization since I was under the impression that anarchists enjoyed something of a hegemony in SDS. I surmised that with the implosion of the anti-globalization movement, anarchists have been on the prowl trying to find an outlet for their tactical fetishism. Apparently, they must have worn out their welcome in SDS, at least with people like Rachel Haut whose politics are a bit hard for me to extract out of the interview. I guess she sounds a bit like one of the early New Leftists who operated in SDS until factional lines were drawn with an earlier generation of Maoists.

In a follow-up post, Ely tries to clarify the underlying politics, based on what he reads as an adaptation to the Obama campaign by Haut mounted as a typical “left pressure” bloc:

But, the point is that it is necessary to go far beyond the exposure of liberal hypocrisy [a reference to Obama’s imperfections]. There needs to be a speaking out about what the program, beliefs and activities of revolutionary communists are today – to speak about preparing for revolution, seeking to reach socialism, organizing the overthrow of imperialism, uprooting the oppression of Black people and immigrants within the U.S., about initiating a revolutionary fight for sustainable human activity within the biosphere, and shattering gender oppression.

All of that stands in contrast to the tepid politics of pressuring Obama (whether gently or rudely, loyally or critically).

Mike sort of lost me with a plea to speak out on “the program, beliefs and activities of revolutionary communists” since that kind of thing sounds more like overheated rhetoric than a real engagement with the tasks of the left today. Frankly, it would be best to retire terms such as “revolutionary communists” since they smack of the kind of in-group mentality on the Marxist-Leninist left. The SWP used to use another ungainly term: “worker-Bolshevik”. Ugh.

Moving right along, I also wonder if Mike really has the politics figured out since both Haut and the FRSO (both groups apparently) are soft on Obama. As he puts it:

There is a strong current within both Freedom Road Socialist Organizations toward supporting Obama (and the Democrats, despite all the crimes of their imperialist politics past, present and future). And so, some associated with those FRSO’s may have trouble pointing out the connection between Rachel Haut’s anti-communism and her softness on Obama.

Frankly, I have a bit of a problem following the peregrinations of Maoist formations like the FRSO and the RCP, but I definitely would not be surprised to see the FRSO lining up behind Obama since one of their more prominent semi-public figures Bill Fletcher has been making the case for the Illinois Senator for some time now.

Beyond the vexing political questions, there is a dimension to the problem that defies easy categorization as “red baiting” or “exclusionism”, even though I had to put up with this kind of threat when I was in the Trotskyist movement in the 1960s and 70s. Basically, the FRSO operates in SDS in the same fashion that any “Leninist” group operates in the mass movement. It caucuses beforehand and comes to the meeting with its own proposals etched in granite. No matter how persuasive the arguments of other members in SDS, the FRSO members are obligated to vote for what their own organization decided in advance. That is in the nature of “democratic centralism”, at least crudely understood in Maoist and Trotskyist sects.

Try to put yourself in the shoes of an ordinary SDS member. You see people whose minds are made up on debated issues, but always in accord with each other. This is sheer poison for any formation in the mass movement, particularly in a group like SDS that was destroyed by the machinations of a 1960s Maoist formation, the Progressive Labor Party.

As individuals I have high regard for FRSO’ers, at least those who I am familiar with in the “Refoundation” grouping-such as Stan Goff (who subsequently broke with the group and ideologically with Marxism, for what that’s worth.)

If I was a member of SDS, I’d argue strongly against any exclusionary measures but I would just as strongly hold the feet of any “Marxist-Leninist” intervening in the organization to the fire. Basically, the mode of operation they favor is a sad relic of our dogmatic past and should be retired ASAP. Furthermore, if the FRSO’ers want to stave off expulsion, the best thing that they could do is learn to differ with each other in public. Unfortunately, that is pretty much excluded by their understanding of “Leninism” so my advice would fall on deaf ears. Perhaps, as their influence continues to decline, they might wake up to the fact that a broader movement is needed. If the cry goes out for non-exclusion, it must be accompanied by one for organizational transparency-something that “revolutionary communists” have had no use for in the past.

44 Comments »

  1. Really?

    And you base this knowledge of how the FRSO’s are operating based on what?

    Your comments are 100% speculation. You seem to have no interest in what’s actually going on, what the practice of the last several years has been in SDS by FRSO or anyone for that matter.

    You’re basically damning people for not doing what they have already been doing for years, Louis. If you bothered to investigate for even five minutes you might not be reduced to this pontification.

    Comment by redflags — September 3, 2008 @ 6:51 pm

  2. My knowledge of the FRSO is based on the documents on their website, one of which goes on at some length on the need for “democratic centralism”. That is about all I need to know. Their work in the mass movement interests me a lot less, at least as far as the problems with SDS are concerned.

    Comment by louisproyect — September 3, 2008 @ 6:57 pm

  3. There are two different organizations with the name FRSO. your post doesnt clarify who is who and what there politics are.

    Comment by Saoirse — September 3, 2008 @ 7:33 pm

  4. Louis:

    I’m one of the FRSO/OSCL people in SDS that Haut alludes to in the article.

    I’d say that your presentation of democratic centralism is what is crude here, Louis, not any organization that’s progressed long enough not to be operating as if we’re androids. Folks dare to talk things over before they vote. How awful! Don’t think, just vote!

    Actually, Louis, SDS’ers voted up a proposal that was written by an unaffiliated Maoist, who had the support of anarchists and social democrats in the first round (in which there were three proposals), and managed to build greater strength in a general round by making principled compromises with the second place group (some very level headed anarchists).

    The folks who came in third (as in dead last — under twenty votes in a population of over a hundred) decided they were going to take their ball, go home, and insist that everyone else were evil dope smoking Weatherpeople.

    The reason you can’t find the politics of Ms. Haut is that she was in the last group mentioned, and there are (in fact) no politics to mention there — other than the worst liberal red-baiting.

    I know I’m a member of FRSO and *I’m* not down for the Obama ticket — and I think it very unwise for SDS’ers to take students (who ain’t a drop of spit in the Obama bucket) into the campaign. So yes, we’re quite capable of being able to differ, present different points of view and nuance — as we have for some time through our easily reachable website.

    Comment by hegemonik — September 3, 2008 @ 7:36 pm

  5. So, let me get this straight.

    You read documents, see a phrase like “democratic centralism” and this is how you are able to evaluate real-world practice?

    This is quite poor methodology and is more suited for scoring rhetorical points than producing any kind of illuminating analysis.

    Comment by onehundredflowers — September 3, 2008 @ 7:45 pm

  6. Louis:

    Redflags and others are right–you haven’t done any real investigation, and by your own words (“That is about all I need to know”), you are clearly uninterested in doing such. As a result, you make claims that are widely known to be baseless.

    You say FRSO members should “learn to differ with each other in public.” To pick an example you yourself reference, FRSO/OSCL members have in fact been disagreeing publicly regarding the Obama campaign, as Hegemonik indicates. The fact that there are internal differences in FRSO/OSCL on the question is known to quite a large number of people.

    This is just a particular example of a principle that FRSO/OSCL has always upheld–that cadre should be able to think for themselves and hold and express their own opinions. Where the organization takes an official position on something (which it hasn’t on the Obama campaign), cadre should communicate the organization’s position, but beyond that cadre are free to give out their own views.

    You seem not to grasp the general method of the mass line as practiced by (most) Maoists. Of course Maoists meet together and develop strategies and plans. Anyone who wants to be at all relevant does such. But you describe a mechanical, lock-step method (“proposals etched in granite”?–give me a break) that Maoists in general are opposed to. One of the more basic principles that Maoists uphold is that revolutionaries have as much or more to learn from the people as the people have to learn from us. If our views and plans are fixed in stone, how can we possibly carry out such a principle? It seems to me that you’re viewing everything through Trotskyist-colored glasses. For example, a lot of Maoists dislike the term “intervening” which you use because it emphasizes a sharp dividing line between revolutionaries and the masses, with revolutionaries coming in from outside and above, whereas Maoism emphasizes revolutionaries becoming one with the masses as much as possible in their actual struggles.

    To express another Maoist view which I’m sure you’re familiar with, I’d strongly recommend actual investigation before you speak on such topics.

    Comment by Skwisgaar — September 3, 2008 @ 8:24 pm

  7. It certainly shouldn’t be the normal or desired mode of operation for groups to uphold a “line” when voting in mass organizations, but I’m not certain that it’s always unjustified. If, for example, there’s *already* some toy-Bolshevik sect present trying to push through its line, and if it’s a bad line, then wouldn’t it be better to mount some sort of symmetrically opposed resistance than to let the organization decay? And we should keep in mind that it’s not just sects that behave in such a manner. People who work for NGOs often have every bit as much of a “line” to push, even if acknowledged.

    Of some interest: Last summer, I collaborated with members of Solidarity, the ISO and the Workers’ International League in university- and community-based antiwar groups in Pittsburgh. At no point did these groups — together or individually — behave in the manner described (which is not, of course, to say that it doesn’t happen). Despite this, all it took was some hesitance to endorse some local anarchists’ hunger strike for us to suddenly be attacked as a — wait for it — “Solidarity-ISO-WIL front group” with an “agenda”.

    Comment by Sam — September 3, 2008 @ 8:34 pm

  8. It is not exactly clear to me whether the FRSO/OSCL members/supporters posting here object to me labeling them as “democratic centralist” or whether they are simply saying that their version of “democratic centralism” is qualitatively different from every other such self-described group on the left. When Badili Jones was on Marxmail, he stated that the group *was* democratic centralist. Does this mean that it is “real” democratic centralism as opposed to the 1960s/70s sectarian model? Frankly, after reading Badili’s article on the FRSO/OSCL website, I have a feeling that the comrades are not really sure themselves. I admit that they are more palatable than the other FRSO group, but there is not much indication that they have really grasped what it means to be a “Leninist” today. That, in my opinion, involves dispensing with the idea of democratic centralism completely since to even use the term indicates a fetishization of organization.

    Comment by louisproyect — September 3, 2008 @ 11:36 pm

  9. Jeez, it’s like you’re being purposefully obtuse. What people are objecting to is your constructing a caricature of FRSO/OSCL’s democratic centralist practice. You may disagree with all forms of democratic centralism, but when you discuss your disagreement with a particular implementation of it, you should at an absolute minimum represent accurately that which you’re criticizing.

    Comment by Skwisgaar — September 4, 2008 @ 3:50 am

  10. A lot of the issues you raise here are interesting, but the dialogue here seems to be getting bogged down by the fact that what “democratic centralism” means to different groups’ practice needs to be analyzed with some nuance. Just setting up an opposition of “real” democratic centralism vs. “the 1960s/70s sectarian model” isn’t enough – to my mind, there are problems with socialist organizational practice in this regard which go back to 1917, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that “democratic centralism” should be un-dialectically opposed, either.

    I say this as someone who is a supporter of an organization – Solidarity – which is not democratic-centralist.

    Comment by jbc — September 4, 2008 @ 6:11 am

  11. I just received a communication from a young Marxmail subscriber who is much more in touch with sectarian trivia than I am. He informed me that the FRSO’ers in SDS who are facing exclusion are *not* the OSCL group but the Fightback group–the group that still adheres to rigid organizational ideas that helped to torpedo the 1960s radical movement as documented in Max Elbaum’s book. Who knows if this is accurate or not. I am just passing it along. Looking at the Fightback website, I am not surprised that they have antagonized people. What a bunch of dogmatic idiots.

    Comment by louisproyect — September 4, 2008 @ 12:35 pm

  12. Actually, no one is facing exclusion. Just so we’re clear that one person’s wish is not the terrain of this organization or where student radicals are at these days.

    I’ve never submitted to the kind of “democratic centralism” Louis finds objectionable. Why not? Because where I have seen it practiced under that name, there was nothing democratic about it. That said, whether a group is centralized or not isn’t nearly as much of an issue (to me) as what their program and practice are.

    Some centralized groups play a fantastic role, some don’t. Some do some times and not others.

    As a student activist, the group I participated in generally didn’t allow people to become fully invested members if they were writing reports to other organizations or operating as plants. Members of both FRSOs were part of SLAM – and they were stalwarts developing their politics in the course of a lively movement. While I may not agree with their conclusions, the work and respect spoke for itself.

    That’s why I think the issue should be people’s behavior and program, not their self-conception. It’s where I disagree strongly with Haut, and also with people who want to graft decades-old schisms with little life in them back onto a vital, radical student organization.

    Comment by redflags — September 4, 2008 @ 2:38 pm

  13. #12: That said, whether a group is centralized or not isn’t nearly as much of an issue (to me) as what their program and practice are.

    Well, Redflags, I come at things at a different angle than you. I saw literally tens of thousands of activists chewed up and spit out by 1960s sectarian party-building methods. I would urge you to read Max Elbaum’s “Revolution in the Air” to find out what happened to the Maoist groups. My own writings focus on Trotskyist self-destruction. All of these groups had very good politics, but they hit a brick wall with their dogmatic understanding of “What is to be Done”, etc. Perhaps because you have not lived through such an experience, it is not important to you. That is understandable.

    Comment by louisproyect — September 4, 2008 @ 2:46 pm

  14. Redflags: “That’s why I think the issue should be people’s behavior and program, not their self-conception.”

    Redflags, what people say about themselves *is* part–an important part–of their politics (to use your terms, people’s self-conception is an important part of their behavior and program). For instance, when you identify yourself as a Maoist, you are asserting the legitimacy of democratic centralism and totalitarianism, even if you have never been subject to party discipline or held any power.

    Comment by Chuck Morse — September 4, 2008 @ 3:19 pm

  15. @louis – Actually, if you’d go to the actual *source document* that’s being discussed (concrete analysis, heaven forbid!) — what’s clearly being discussed is a blanket ban on “Maoists”. And in particular, there’s enough evidence to show that Ms. Haut’s not quite making distinctions for the sake of the purge — she speaks on the ones in NYC (where there are no Fight Back!’ers)

    @Chuck – and if you identify as an anarchist, then by the same token I can say you support burning churches. After all, that was Durruti’s quote, right? “The only church that illuminates is the one on fire.” You hold that as true, even if you’re not lighting matches or setting down gasoline.

    So actually Chuck — um, no on this nonsense that people who a) don’t hold the positions you force into their mouths, and b) wouldn’t uphold “totalitarianism” even if it were offered it are somehow totalitarians because it makes for a convenient argument. Even the SCOTUS could figure that out, which is the reason why the FBI doesn’t swoop down on anyone for reading Marx.

    Comment by hegemonik — September 4, 2008 @ 3:34 pm

  16. Democratic centralism and totalitarianism (the total subsumption of the individual to the state) are integral aspects of Maoism. If you reject these things, then you are not a Maoist.

    I’m pretty sure that Durruti never made the statement that you attribute to him–and I would know, because I translated an 800 page biography of him–but that’s not the point. I would not assert that Maoists necessarily agree with every, single statement that Mao ever made (that would pretty silly, right?) but I do believe that Maoism has some fundamental precepts and, if you abandon those, you abandon Maoism.

    Comment by Chuck Morse — September 4, 2008 @ 3:55 pm

  17. Very interesting discussion. I kinda agree with Mao’s famous dictum, “No investigation, no right to speak.” I find it rather odd Comrade Proyect did *not* investigate the situation before hand, as one of the things he’s known for is is rigorous investigation. You’re being very unlike yourself, Louis.

    That said, this sounds much more like run of the mill anti-communism, such as hit pieces Michelle Goldberg kept running on ANSWER in Salon.com, until the Democrats and their fellow travelers created UFPJ and sank the antiwar movement into the Democratic swamp of John Kerry. I think it has less to do with the behavior of Maoists and anarchists in SDS (and wasn’t it the anarchists who re-founded SDS in the first place?) and more to do with anti-democratic liberalism and the Obama cult.

    Comment by chegitz guevara — September 4, 2008 @ 5:33 pm

  18. Chuck:

    Even granting that you may be correct that a commitment to “totalitarianism” is essential to Mao’s thought, it doesn’t at all follow that you “assert the legitimacy” of the same merely by “identifying yourself as a Maoist”. Why not? Because not everyone who *identifies* as a Maoist *understands* Maoism as something in which totalitarianism is implicit. You could make the argument that they actually subscribe to something quite different from Maoism without realizing it, but that’s a separate issue. It’s worth pointing out here that the left-libertarian Big Flame group in England identified with Maoist thought, and that Harry Cleaver praises the Cultural Revolution in Reading Capital Politically.

    Comment by Sam — September 4, 2008 @ 6:02 pm

  19. The FRSO is strong in Minneapolis I think. I say that I think so, is because they rarely identify themselves as communists.

    They were instrumental in the St. Paul RNC protests. They are rabid against “The Republican Agenda,” and they say we should “defeat McCain.” They endorsed Obama because his win will make a better enviroment to organize.

    They support every Stalinist and nationalist dictator in the world.

    Comment by Renegade Eye — September 4, 2008 @ 6:22 pm

  20. Yes, Sam, I think it’s true that a lot of self-identified Maoists are confused and know very little about the tradition that they supposedly embrace. True, but that’s not something that I think we should condone.

    Comment by Chuck Morse — September 4, 2008 @ 6:37 pm

  21. Agreed. But that seems to me to be a good case for *inclusion*. Better to let them learn through experience and dialogue with other activists than to potentially condemn them to sectarian oblivion.

    If you have a group that clearly requires its members to eschew any semblance of loyalty to a mass organization in which they take part — okay, then you can maybe justifiably argue for exclusion. Otherwise, it’s not so clear.

    Comment by Sam — September 4, 2008 @ 6:54 pm

  22. I think that the core issue is how we are going to conceive and congeal a revolutionary movement that can actually transform society in a radically liberatory direction.

    If you start (as Rachel Haul seems to) with a view that the revolutionary left must be excluded from the social discussion — then you would be, from the very beginning, embracing the status quo.

    But i think we need to acknowledge that there is a rather profound and dogmatic problem in much of the more organized left (that self-identifies with socialist or communist). A “radical politics” that embraces Obama or the current Chinese regime (as lesser evils to Republican-style neo-liberalism) is not radical at all.

    And i think we suffer from a long legacy of reducing Marxism to a string of sterile formulas (democratic centralism, vanguard party, dictatorship of the proletariat) that, at this point in their history and evolution as formulas, obscure more than they clarify.

    take democratic centralism: The oppressed really have no power other than the power achieved through organization, consciousness and common action. Any serious plan for revolutionary change must embrace the need for disciplined organization, common action, and a deepening unity around a common political program. Is that “democratic centralism”? Who knows? The internal operations of the group i used to belong to (the RCP) are deeply secret. Are leaders elected? Is the central committee appointed? Are there party congresses? Do they excercise any oversight over the party’s leadership? Such things are simply unknown.

    To have any serious chance to really engage with revolution and with the people — i think we have to step away from a mindset that sees the present through the prism of very old dividing lines, and engage afresh on the living problems of revolutionary change.

    The argument was made that if you want “a Maoist movement” you can’t be part of developing a mass student movement. and i think that is completely wrong. The movements we need must be shaped and defined by serious and open engaging over radical ideas. And in fact, you can’t have a mass student movement that is worth anything, if communist revolutionaries don’t speak out (as part of such a movement) from their perspective and about their strategies.

    Past of the issue here is that groups like FRSO (fightback) are (as was noted above) completely reluctant to speak about their beliefs, and prefer to operate organizationally under very non-revolutionary banners. How does that help prepare minds and organize forces for radical change?

    Comment by Mike E — September 4, 2008 @ 7:07 pm

  23. In the immigrants rights movement on Mayday last year, we fought and beat them on slogans. They volunteered to make the flyer. Funny how there was no room for our slogans in big print. That is the style they use.

    I wonder how many people in the local Code Pink know a Maoist is their chair? I doubt if very many.

    In my mind FRSO (Fight Back) are like the old CP, only annoying loud on bullhorns. They are deep cover for the most part. Some never once identified themselves as members.

    In the antiwar coalition and immigrants rights movement locally, they contradict me for the sake of contradicting me.

    I’m opposed to redbaitiing. The way to beat them is politically.

    Comment by Renegade Eye — September 4, 2008 @ 7:28 pm

  24. I would also like to make a criticism of the way Louis’ arguments are being treated here.

    Was Louis wrong to comment on the FRSO’s without investigation? Yes. Was it methodologically wrong to act like you can deduce an organization’s role and style simply from the fact that they uphold “democratic centralism”? Yes.

    But… it makes little sense to dwell on these methodological matters, when there are real issues of substance involved. As Chegitz pointed out, you really don’t need to lecture Louise on the importance of investigation.

    The issues of substance are whether we need a revolution, and how that is brought about? What kind of alternative society should we fight for — as we challenge and expose the crimes of this society? How should we organize ourselves? How do conscious revolutionaries work among the people (including among broad formations of radicalizing students with diverse views and politics)?

    And I think we should set aside a flattening simplifying tendency to treat all organized left groups as essentially the same, as as examples of essentially the same problem.

    Louis thinks that the Maoists groups that emerged from the seventies are functionally equivalent of his own SWP — so he thinks if you have critiqued one you have effectively critiqued them all. (And as I have written elsewhere Elbaum’s book on the revolutionaries of the 1970s should be read as distorted polemic, not as a reliable history.)

    Hegemonik, for example, on Kasama spoke about “the source of frictions with party-oriented Left groups and students…” Do all organized left groups really have the same “frictions” with “students”?

    I think it is mistaken to broadly generalize about diverse forces within SDS as “Maoists.” And I believe the politics of the various groups (their frictions and the sources of those frictions) vary greatly.

    We should not simplify a series of complex problems. And I think that what is needed (both within SDS and without) is a creative, engaging, fearless discussion of what revolution would mean, and why it would solve the problems of humanity.

    Comment by Mike E — September 4, 2008 @ 7:50 pm

  25. There are some more pressing questions than the ones we’re actually discussing, and since a number of plugged-in people seem to be reading this I will ask a couple of them. 1) Who the hell is Rachel Haut – is she influential in SDS or just a “rightist” (radical democrat, anti-socialist, anti-anarchist) person with an axe to grind? 2) Is there any evidence of red-baiting, anarchist-baiting, or attempts to exclude Maoists (FRSO [Fight Back!] or otherwise) in SDS, *beyond* Rachel Haut’s expressed desire to do so in this interview?

    I will add – I haven’t worked with FRSO [FB] folks personally, but I know people who work with them closely in Chicago and Minneapolis, despite disagreeing with a lot of their politics – who say that they are very solid, good activists. I’m sure I don’t agree with FRSO [FB] folks about socialist organization in a lot of ways, especially since they disowned the “Crisis of Socialism” perspective which, to me, was one of the more interesting basic documents of FRSO. But it’s a far cry from that to say that they are playing a similar role to that of the PLP in the old SDS. No one I know in SDS – and I know people with different takes on things – thinks that.

    Comment by jbc — September 4, 2008 @ 8:26 pm

  26. jbc, there was an instance a while back when some SDSers carried a “Fuck the ISO” sign at a joint CAN-SDS antiwar march

    My impression, though, is that such folks are a noisy minority and not terribly influential in the organization. Here in DC, I’ve had a good deal of interaction with SDSers and experienced nothing approaching red-baiting.

    Comment by Sam — September 4, 2008 @ 8:46 pm

  27. FSRO is in jail tonight in St. Paul.

    It’s a wild night, even Fox News got gassed. More reporters arrested tonight.

    Comment by Renegade Eye — September 5, 2008 @ 5:42 am

  28. #24: “And I think we should set aside a flattening simplifying tendency to treat all organized left groups as essentially the same, as as examples of essentially the same problem.”

    Of course, these groups are different *politically*. The Marcyite-derived groups have a Manichean tendency to back anybody who is attacked by imperialism, including Mugabe while the ISO backs their co-thinkers in Zimbabwe. Both FRSO’s support Obama to one degree or another, while the ISO does not. The SWP has its own peculiar ideas based on how Jack Barnes feels when he wakes up on a given day.

    But I am not discussing *politics*. I am discussing party-building conceptions that have a number of negative consequences–the most important of which is a failure to lead to a *true* vanguard. Among these consequences is a tendency to rub people in the mass movement the wrong way. Every self-declared vanguard group (including those who disingenuously claim that they will only be part of a future vanguard) operates in the same clumsy way in the antiwar movement, etc. They in effect have divided loyalties and all of it stems from a misunderstanding of Bolshevik history. To build a true Bolshevik party in the US first of all requires dropping the nonsense about “democratic centralism”, the sooner the better.

    Comment by louisproyect — September 5, 2008 @ 1:23 pm

  29. But I don’t think the differences are only political. Just a cursory glance at the documents of the two FRSOs will reveal glaring differences in organizational conceptions. And the ISO has been making considerable (and, I think, too-little-noticed) progress in this area since breaking with the IST. For example, I know the ISO has begun stressing to its CAN fractions the need to avoid intervening in a “substitutionist” fashion.

    You can’t just say, “Oh, they use the term ‘democratic centralism’, so they must be a carbon copy of the SWP at its worst.” Comrades can and do use the term to mean different things.

    Comment by Sam — September 5, 2008 @ 1:38 pm

  30. In reference to #29:

    Certainly, the ISO and the FRSO/OSCL are better than the SWP in terms of being more flexible, more modest, etc. But I am not looking for quantitative changes. I am looking for *qualitative* changes that will prove too much for any such group to consider since it would amount to “liquidation” in their eyes.

    Comment by louisproyect — September 5, 2008 @ 1:43 pm

  31. Louis wrote:

    “But I am not discussing *politics*. I am discussing party-building conceptions that have a number of negative consequences–the most important of which is a failure to lead to a *true* vanguard. Among these consequences is a tendency to rub people in the mass movement the wrong way. Every self-declared vanguard group (including those who disingenuously claim that they will only be part of a future vanguard) operates in the same clumsy way in the antiwar movement, etc. They in effect have divided loyalties and all of it stems from a misunderstanding of Bolshevik history.”

    Louis is again insisting that there is a GENERAL problem with the organized left groups. And he implies (with his discussion of democratic centralism) that it is inherent in the form of organization — apart from politics.

    I think it is true that some political groups act in a parasitic way. I think that some act arrogantly and crudely in the midst of mass movements. I think that some think that preaching “fire your ideas, hire mine” will transform a political landscape. And so on.

    And we have all seen (or perpetrated) examples of this — some small, some grievous.

    And I agree there is a cardboard mythology of “what the bolsheviks did” that justifies all kinds of self-deception and political madness of a rather sectarian kind.

    But i don’t think all it is INHERENT in communist organization, at its best.

    Even at its best, communist organization has (must have!) the “divided loyalties” that Louis complains of. And (at its best) it doesn’t come from mythologies about Russia, but from something objective.

    Marx and Engels wrote that we (as communists) need to represent the future within the present. We seek to represent the overall within the part. In the class struggles that stir souls today, we seek to represent and prepare leaps that are yet to come.

    That tension, that dynamic is necessary… because without this you actually can’t have a movement that can make leaps (from resistance to revolution, from opposition to leading society, from legal activity to more combative forms).

    So, yes, let’s criticize the dogmatic, self-important, self-delusional mythologies that characterizes much of the organized left. Let’s be rather ruthless about it.

    That spirit is something that animates the Kasama project I am part of, and it is (in my opinion) a welcome and widely shared impulse.

    But let’s do this in a way that doesn’t throw out the necessary task of “representing the future within the present.” We can’t avoid all the tensions that come with this, because we can’t avoid the responsibilities that come with seeking to make revolution and create a new society. What we can do is handle those tensions creatively and respectfully — uniting with and struggling with others in a way that doesn’t shatter, disrupt, or isolate every promising sprout of mass resistance.

    Comment by Nando — September 5, 2008 @ 3:12 pm

  32. Final note:

    While it is true that many organized leftist groups operate in a disruptive way in moments of mass resistance, the MAIN problem i see is the abandonment of serious revolutionary intentions and strategy.

    Some like the RCP (which I am familiar with) are imbued with a sincere intention to bring about revolutionary change — and have fashioned a cocoon of self-delusion and self-promotion around themselves (as the “only serious revolutionary party.”)

    But that is an exception. Far far more common is a virtual abandonment of revolution — an assumption that it is impossible, improbably, or so far distant as to be irrelevent.

    the old slogan “the movement is everything, the final goal is nothing” is very much alive…

    And that is, why i think we need to fight for the space to make revolution real, to dare to represent that case for revolution in a real, creative and practical way (now, not tomorrow). And that, as i said above, bring with it many kinds of tension (in a universe defined and propelled by ceaseless and infinite contradictions).

    Comment by Nando — September 5, 2008 @ 3:17 pm

  33. Nando, I have no idea what you mean by “communist organization” so I really can’t reply to you. Also, I don’t know what you mean by “serious revolutionary intentions and strategy”. Do you know of literature that spells out what you mean by this, written either by you or some other groups or individuals you sympathize with? I am afraid that your comments are long on rhetoric and short on substance. Please feel free to expound at length here. WordPress comments have no byte limit.

    Comment by louisproyect — September 5, 2008 @ 3:28 pm

  34. Louis: Could you please explain (or at least give reference to an article that explains) the “qualitative” changes you call for that would amount to liquidation for these groups? You seem to be arguing for radical left organizations that are more focused than student groups or anti-war coalitions but consisting of a “broader movement” than tightly organized “Leninist” parties. I wonder if you could elaborate on this middle ground, since I think it is the feeling that there is nothing in between that drives a lot of good activists into such organzations.

    Comment by Nik Barry-Shaw — September 5, 2008 @ 3:59 pm

  35. Louis wrote:

    “Nando, I have no idea what you mean by “communist organization” so I really can’t reply to you… I am afraid that your comments are long on rhetoric and short on substance.”

    I suspect that what you perceive as rhetoric is the use of phrases that have meaning in my political context, but that don’t translate clearly to where you sit. So they don’t serve well as short encapsulations, and just come across as vague and empty.

    Fair enough. Common language takes work and repeated clarification.

    Forgive me if any of the following is obvious (and if it therefore sounds pedantic or patronizing) — but I will try to break down some things that are sometimes implicit or assumed in what we write.

    * * * * * *

    My assumption is that different kinds of political organization are needed (and continually created and recreated) by the people — and that one of the things that necessitates and defines those different kinds is different kinds of defining unity.

    For me, “communist organization” is a level of organization that brings together people whose goal is a classless communist society (defined in a negative sense by the phrase the “4 alls”).

    This is obviously a different kind of organization from (say) SDS (whose basis of unity is very broad.

    In non-revolutionary times, there is a rather stark difference between the level of unity involved in communist organization and (say) the many organizations of mass struggle (like antiwar coalitions, or organizations for immigrant amnesty and legalization). At other times (if we are lucky and skillful) that gap can close (and even seem to evaporate) as a general mood of revolution (and even communist politics) becomes a powerful wind BROADLY among the people.

    Louis writes:

    “Also, I don’t know what you mean by “serious revolutionary intentions and strategy”. Do you know of literature that spells out what you mean by this, written either by you or some other groups or individuals you sympathize with?”

    First on the question of intentions: In my experience, all kinds of people and forces express a desire for “change.” But (as we all know) there is a great deal of struggle over what kind of change we need (and what kind of “change we can believe in.”)

    In my view, very fundamental, radical and far reaching change is needed to end the intolerable conditions that most people face. I.e. revolutionary change.

    And a starting point for developing a serious strategy for such change is a serious intention. All through my political life, i have encountered people and people forces who spoke about revolution (or socialism, or communism), but who really had no conception or intention of really changing that much. (For example, when I was in Eastern Europe in the days of the Soviet bloc, i was stunned to find western leftists who thought this was a positive model for society — for me it was just another oppressive hellhole. Any “differences” i could find were measurable in irrelevant millimeters.)

    So I think we need to argue for “springing all of society in the air” — and starting from those serious intentions we need to move forwards (and draw together others in moving forward) toward the meat and bone of strategic planning and then strategic action (both by those organized as communists, but also more broadly by people who can be attracted to and mobilized along those lines).

    This process involes (inherently and obviously) a great deal of self-interrogation, self-criticism, wrong starts, shifts, and learning-by-doing. but for all that difficulty, it is a process we need to be deeply engaged in, and pressing ahead on.

    And underlying piont here is that, in my view, some revolutions “just happen” in ways that are scarcely planned or anticipated. The overthrow of the Shah of Iran is an example. BUT the kind of revolutions that communists desire involve a great deal of preparation — so that the overthrow of old governments and institutions actually are succeeded by new forms of politics and social relations that are truly liberatory.

    So for the revolutionary project there needs to be a serious body of theoretical work — analysing class forces, analysing key faultlines in society, indentifying forms and methods of political work, envisioning strategic alliances that can both make revolution and shape a new society, etc.

    And yes, i think there is a great body of such material available — from many countries, and from many periods of history. And unfortunately less for our own time and country.

    I think, for example, that Mao’s “Analysis of Classes in chinese Society,” or Ibrahim Kaypakkayya’s groundbreaking notes on the approach to the Turkish state and the Kurdish people, or the many strategic works now emerging from Nepal and India are valuable to study (even from afar) for method and insight.

    The Communist manifesto by Marx and Engels was a brilliant work of strategy AND agitation (for its time).

    The historic 1971 document “Philippine Society and Revolution” by Amado Guerrero, is another example.

    I think that Mao’s profoundly creative invention of New Democratic revolution (as a road to socialism in semi-feudal countries) as a remarkable example of this — especially if we examine how it was done on the living canvas of political life (as opposed to simply in the words of this or that preparatory strategic document).

    When it comes to the U.S., I am more in a mood to talk about the need for such work, than to point to previous documents that took steps in the right direction. But there were documents, analyses, and disputes that helped clarify some things in the past.

    But mainly, the task of “charting the uncharted course” (for revolution in the U.S.) lies ahead of us, and that task unfolds under some radically new conditions (new forms of capitalism/imperialism, new contradictions on a world scale, new structures of class and political dynamics, new contradictions within communist theory and practice etc.)

    I am working (together with others) to take up such tasks (within the Kasama Project)… and I’m certain that many people (including folks reading these exchanges) are involved in their own ways (and from their own perspectives.)

    Comment by Nando — September 5, 2008 @ 4:54 pm

  36. Nando: For me, “communist organization” is a level of organization that brings together people whose goal is a classless communist society (defined in a negative sense by the phrase the “4 alls”).

    Me: But autonomists and anarchists also desire a classless society, don’t they? What good does it do to belong to the same group as them when they differ so sharply with Marxists on the key question of state power. Unless, of course, you have some affinity with these currents.

    Nando: Ibrahim Kaypakkayya…Amado Guerrero…Mao…

    Me: Oh, I see. Very interesting.

    Comment by louisproyect — September 5, 2008 @ 5:16 pm

  37. In reply to #34, I wrote something a while back that relates to what kind of socialist organization might be needed today. It was written as if I were Jack Barnes speaking to a 1974 SWP convention:

    http://www.columbia.edu/~lnp3/mydocs/american_left/barnes.htm

    Comment by louisproyect — September 5, 2008 @ 5:18 pm

  38. I think Nando’s suggestion as to what constitutes valuable study in the context of revolutionary change and the marxist contributions to our understanding of the process sort of underlines Louis’ point. The works of thinkers like Mao can, within a certain context, broaden our understanding of “charting the uncharted course”, but I’ve found far more concrete analysis of U.S. conditions in the works of thinkers like William Foster or W.E.B. DuBois, or Hal Draper, or in our own time, Adolph Reed. None of these people are cited in the canons of any vanguard formation I’ve been acquainted with, but all of them shed a lot more light on the peculiarities of the U.S. situation then a good part of the works of, say, Mao or Trotsky have, in my experience. For that matter, when it comes to questions as complex as those facing indigenous Americans, I’ve found that if any theory outside the United States is flexible enough to be of assistance, Mariategui leaves most any of the classic marxists in the dust. And I think this is what Louis is really drawing out with his argument; that the tendency of the grouplet, whether intentionally so or not, is to limit creative and critical inquiry, which reflects itself in political practice.

    On the flip side of this coin, I’m more of the concern that the new cults generated by the “anti-authoritarian” or “anti-leninist” left that dominate most radical politics in the United States pose far more of a threat to any cohesian of mass political force then the posturing of groups like the ISO, FRSO or the FSP. The endless hairsplitting and search for “practical” strategies and perfect schematics led by the self-identified anarchist and semi-anarchist grouplets- a prominenent example might be Todd Gitlin or Michael Albert and his “participatory economics” crew- are the real vanguardist cults of now, in my not so humble opinion. And half of them end up pattering after the democrats, after much sound and fury. Look at what’s happened to the anti-war effort in this country under their “anti-authoritarian” tutelege. At least you can rely on the ISO, or almost any other grouplet, for votes of suppport at local or labor council meetings. The “practical” left would rather spend its energies prevailing upon the good graces of “liberal democrats” then trust rank and file organizing anywhere. Liberals with bombs, as Lenin called them, sure enough.

    Comment by Michael Hureaux — September 5, 2008 @ 5:23 pm

  39. Michael writes:

    “I think Nando’s suggestion as to what constitutes valuable study in the context of revolutionary change and the marxist contributions to our understanding of the process sort of underlines Louis’ point.”

    I would have assumed that to be true, Michael. But Louis himself seemed to think that a curt and dismissive fuck-you was the appropriate response to my comments.

    Go figger.

    Michael writes:
    “The works of thinkers like Mao can, within a certain context, broaden our understanding of “charting the uncharted course”, but I’ve found far more concrete analysis of U.S. conditions in the works of thinkers like William Foster or W.E.B. DuBois, or Hal Draper, or in our own time, Adolph Reed. None of these people are cited in the canons of any vanguard formation I’ve been acquainted with, but all of them shed a lot more light on the peculiarities of the U.S. situation then a good part of the works of, say, Mao or Trotsky have, in my experience.”

    First, i think we need to make a distinction between method and strategy. I think there is a great deal to learn (in Mao, for example) even though the particular strategy he was pursuing was inevitably very different from the one we need to develop.

    In general, I think that there has been an underestimation of particularity, and a far-too-rapid assumption of universal applicability.

    In other words, I think that it is true in general that we have a lot to learn about method from people who have made revolutions — but that the details of strategy, organizational formation, tactics, allignment of forces etc. will inevitably be peculiar (and even shockingly different) in each country that makes a socialist revolution.

    * * * * *

    I have read some of the names you mention. At one point i sat down and read everything I could find that Foster wrote. At another point I plowed through Draper.

    But mainly, i have to say, both of those stand out to me as negative example.

    Foster was a fairly unreconstructed syndicalist who thought communist ideas were usful for forging an energetic core — FOR BUILDING TRADE UNIONS. He thought Marxism was valuable as a kind of glue for an active left within the trade union movement… but I question whether he ever seriously or deeply grappled with any strategic approach to socialist revolution (other than to assume/assert that socialism might emerge sooner-or-later from a big, bad industrial tradeunion movement.)

    His writings are taken up by people who keep their Marxism behind closed doors, as a way of cohering their organizers — but whose practical work is movementism (i.e. seeking mainly to get large numbers of people into initial stages of struggle against the policies of status quo.)

    I won’t give a similar capsule summation of Draper…. but the whole notion of “revolution from below” leaves out half of real politics (in ways which sometimes seems naive, and sometimes seems deceptive).

    IN other words, I don’t think it is mainly a matter of finding the RIGHT GUYS to imitate (Foster and Dubois, not mao or trotsky)…. There is no one who has solved the problems we face. This truly is an uncharted course.

    And I think we should learn from those who banged their heads against it (Foster, Avakian, Dubois, and more)… but i don’t think (from my investigations so far) that we will find the answers we need “there for the taking.”

    Leaving all this aside….

    I agree with you that theory and insight needs to be drawn from a larger pool than one or two “world historic thinkers.”

    I don’t believe in canons at all. I don’t believe there are “Marxist classics.” I think that if you are trained in the “ABCs of marxism” you have been deprived of any meaninflul marxism.

    This was always true. And I think there was a big problem that emerged when the term “Marxism Leninism” was used to knock down any local innovations and thinking (gramsci, Lukasz, mariatiqui, luxemburg, and then most famously Mao). That process of “bolshevization” imposed a set of formulas that often led new revolutionary projects in frustrating directions.

    And i don’t think we should deceive ourselves in that way. there is no shortcut here — no way except through new, creative work based on the conditions we face.

    Comment by Nando — September 5, 2008 @ 6:27 pm

  40. My understanding of Maoism is a war AGAINST the state, or against a technocratic state capitalism in lieu of socialism. That’s the issue they had with Russian, no? Or with the people who went on to bring us sweatshop China.

    Maoists support totalitarianism?

    I’ve never seen that. Have you?

    Comment by L-MAO — September 5, 2008 @ 7:52 pm

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