Louis Proyect: The Unrepentant Marxist

June 2, 2008

A comment on successful rioting

Filed under: revolutionary organizing — louisproyect @ 3:12 pm

Over on Richard Seymour’s “Lenin’s Tomb” blog, there’s a guest post by “Roobin” titled “The just-about-Gramscian theory of successful rioting” that is a fairly awful exercise in ultraleftism. I am not sure of Roobin’s identity, but he wrote an excellent analysis of James Joyce there the other day. My initial comment on “successful rioting” was to advise Roobin to stick to James Joyce, which prompted Richard to demand a more considered response. So here goes.

Roobin begins by hailing the work of the British antiwar movement whose gains he describes as follows:

Though by no means permanent, the lasting benefits of the anti-war movement have been a generalised anti-imperialist consciousness, a suspicion of secretive, undemocratic government and a check on the racist backlash against Muslims. These gains must be defended.

I wonder why he didn’t choose to include the movement’s ability to restrain the war-making capabilities of British troops in Iraq. I don’t want to read too much into this, but during the Vietnam War period, there were sharp divisions between those who opposed the mass demonstrations because they were not “anti-imperialist” enough and those who pushed for massive numbers, which in my view amounted to objective anti-imperialism. This insistence on the movement being more radical can be found in the pages of the ISO press in the U.S., taking the form of “Support the Resistance”. My reaction to such an approach can be found here.

Now it is entirely possible that I have misunderstood Roobin on this matter, but I am afraid that his take on the question of “successful rioting” is not susceptible to misinterpretation:

The good news is, given preparation (the opportunity for which, of course, is normally denied), the average citizen can match a police officer blow for blow. A police officer has access to hand arms, in particular clubs, but the ordinary citizen can get and/or easily improvise these. The same is true of body armour and self-defence. The police have roadblocks, the people barricades. The police can use sturdy, powerful vehicles, so can the public. The police can use tools such as water cannons to disperse a crowd but a resourceful crowd can use similar devices to reverse effect. The police can use small firearms. Even in Britain it is not impossible for a member of the public to get hold of some. Any weapons won from the police in battle can immediately be used against them.

Not to mince words, this is complete idiocy and most unfortunate for the British left to have it aired on a prominent blog such as “Lenin’s Tomb”. When Roobin writes “Any weapons won from the police in battle can immediately be used against them,” he is indulging in the worst kind of ultraleft posturing that can open up the movement to victimization. The best defense against the cops is massive numbers, not tactical adroitness with “body armour”, etc. At least Roobin seems to understand this when he states in the very next paragraph that “when 2 million people are intent on using Hyde Park for a demonstration there is nothing the state can do to stop them (without seriously upping the ante).” It is too bad that he simply did not stick with this approach and wandered off into what amounts to urban guerrilla fantasies of the sort that helped to destroy the movement in the 1960s and 70s.

Unfortunately, the emphasis on mass action is dropped in the very next paragraph when the comrade demonstrates a fondness for black block forms of struggle:

During the anti-G8 demonstrations in Germany recently there was a very successful direct action that blocked the railway line to the summit resort. The police blocked every road route toward the resort. The marchers approached a blockade as a mass before raising a set of flags and dispersing in large, pre-organised groups into fields of shoulder high corn, following the flags. The police had not planned for this and could not cope with it; their organisation had been broken.

The most significant aspect of the G8 demonstrations is not blocking a railway, but the participation of 80,000 opponents of the neoliberal system, many of whom came from the trade union movement. The notion of dispersed groups being somehow successful because they outmaneuvered the cops strikes me as going backwards politically. There was a serious reevaluation of this kind of cat-and-mouse, black block, tactical fetishism after 2001, which was never really put to some kind of test since the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq more or less pulled the rug from underneath the anarchist and autonomist foot troops of the anti-capitalist movement.

21 Comments »

  1. “I am not sure of Roobin’s identity”

    I am an 161 year old professor at Mars University.

    Comment by Roobin — June 2, 2008 @ 3:49 pm

  2. Louis, I would urge readers to read your comments on the ISO position with the link you provide. The need for mass action instead of ulltra-left antics is clear-especially so when so much of the American people have seen through the lies they were fed about Iraq. Participating in a mass march for the first time can change the way people think, and the potential for millions of Americans to move to the left in the next few years is real.

    Also enjoyed your comments on Swans about Jerry Rubin, Abbie Hoffman, etc. which spoke to a lot of the issues yoiu raise here.

    Very happy to see the growing interest in the June 28-29 National Assembly to End the War in Iraq conference in Cleveland. Best chance to get a genuine united front for “Out Now” mass actions in a long time.

    Comment by Philip — June 2, 2008 @ 3:49 pm

  3. Saul Alinsky once said, it is idiocy for the Panthers to say all power grows out of the barrel of a gun when the other side has all the guns.

    Comment by Bob Morris — June 2, 2008 @ 3:53 pm

  4. Philip: “Louis, I would urge readers to read your comments on the ISO position with the link you provide. The need for mass action instead of ulltra-left antics is clear.”

    People should certainly read Louis’ comments, but if the implication is that the “ISO position” is support for “ultra-left antics” of the kind that Roobin seems to be defending, then Philip hasn’t read the piece by Alan Maass that Louis was commenting on. That article is precisely a call *for* mass action and an end to red baiting and attempts to limit debate within the movement that make it more difficult to build. I find it bizarre to equate Roobin’s nutty idea that “weapons won from the police in battle can immediately be used against them” with the view that the antiwar movement should openly discuss issues such as the Iraqi right to self-determination and take on the racist idea that Iraqis are not capable of running their own country.

    For a discussion of more recent attempts to limit what people in the antiwar movement can say, see http://www.isreview.org/issues/59/rep-wintersoldier.shtml.

    Comment by Phil Gasper — June 2, 2008 @ 4:58 pm

  5. “Any weapons won from the police in battle can immediately be used against them . . . .”

    I totally understand that it can be a bit cringeworthy to read stuff like this.TBH, it’s laughable when one thinks that it appeared on the leading SWP blog. The bluster doesn’t bear any resemblance to any action of any SWP member that I’ve ever seen at a demo, march or action.

    There’s one thing to be an armchair socialist, but to be an armchair barricadist? ‘Roobin’ might be 161, but it’s never too late to grow up. ;-)

    Comment by Darren — June 2, 2008 @ 4:58 pm

  6. I guess you can say that Richard has a weakness for the cringe-worthy if you’ve ever seen Yoshie Furuhashi’s stuff there. I think that the most radical thing that one can do in a country like the U.S. or Great Britain is to find a way to get millions of people into the streets on behalf of a strong principled demand like “Out Now” even if it fails to titillate the radical cognoscenti.

    Comment by louisproyect — June 2, 2008 @ 5:04 pm

  7. I’ve learned from my SDS experience, every word Louis is saying is correct.

    Comment by Renegade Eye — June 3, 2008 @ 6:43 am

  8. Ho-kay, I’ll cut and paste my response from Lenin’s Tomb before anyone else gets the idea of deliberately misreading what was said in order to make a quick and easy point:

    “On the matter of the urban guerrilla fantasy, it was rather gonzo, but then I admire HST’s ability to render subjects vivid. The point is the cutting edge of the policeforce is not firepower but organisation.

    “On the matter of the direct action this was an account given to me by a British SWP member. I assume from that there was quite wide participation in the direct action as the SWP has consistently opposed substitution by small groups. Thinking back, I remember TV reports showing at least hundreds, if not thousands of people blocking the railway track to the summit centre. It may not be the best we could do (it’s only blocking a railway line to a resort, not stopping the wheels of capitalism), but it’s good enough to count as a mass direct action.”

    Which is fine by me. I don’t know if it’ll stand up in the court of Proyect, but, then you have no jurdrisdiction where I am. I warned Len about this kind of thing happening. If I write again maybe you can give more some style hits, perhaps a book, or a brief to work from. This kind of stuff is very, very, VERY important.

    Comment by Roobin — June 3, 2008 @ 10:44 am

  9. I think you somewhat misread Roobin’s point with that second quote. I read it as an example of smart tactical thinking, not as a condemnation of mass mobilisation.

    Comment by Martin Wisse — June 3, 2008 @ 12:56 pm

  10. [...] Louis Proyect has already commented on this. [...]

    Pingback by SOCIALIST UNITY » SWP SAYS: "Any weapons won from the police in battle can immediately be used against them." — June 3, 2008 @ 1:20 pm

  11. [...] te ontfutselen en ze met kogels te bestoken. Linkse weblogger Louis Proyect vat het, als ik zijn reactie op dit stuk op zijn eigen weblog goed opvat, kennelijk zo op. Maar ik geloof niet dat de passage dat echt bedoelt. Lees het vervolg [...]

    Pingback by Protest en politie, van Oss tot Heiligendamm « Rooieravotr — June 3, 2008 @ 7:39 pm

  12. Andy Newman’s hysteria was a joy. Best fun I’ve had since Ian Birchill was interviewed at Greenham Common and stated ‘what we need are men of violence’. Ultraleftism has its place. Sadly though Roobin’s piece was a perfectly respectable and sober political analyses unless the word ‘direct action’ makes you froth at the mouth like Neil Kinnock on bad acid (about the last time I had to engage with the more ‘theoretical’ arguments one finds at ANs place).

    Comment by johng — June 3, 2008 @ 8:30 pm

  13. Isn’t it Birchall?

    And, btw, I don’t think that Roobin is a driven ultraleft in the way that Yoshie is driven. After having had a chance to read his follow-up comments, it just strikes me that he was thinking out loud. I wish, however, that he would stick to James Joyce and cultural matters since he is obviously on firmer ground there.

    Comment by louisproyect — June 3, 2008 @ 8:37 pm

  14. I think Roobin seriously underestimates the capability of the cops.

    My thinking is that the ‘missile gap’ between the cops and protestors has lengthened considerably since the 60s and 70s in Britain. The cops now have CS gas, tasers, plastic bullets (used in Northern Ireland) and there are a lot more armed cops. They would have needed to bring in the Army then to have this firepower. Their surveillance capability has also increased by a very large degree. What more do protestors have – nothing except mobile communications.

    It would certainly be suicidal or at least would see your group holding their meetings for the next decade in a prison receration room to go on the offensive against the pigs in present conditions.

    But that’s not to say things will always be like this. If we ever do advance beyond a certain stage then we won’t be discussing the pros and cons, it would simply become a neccessity.

    I have been in demonstrations where police lines have broken – e.g. against the (far right) National Front (NF) in the 80s; and before my time there was pretty harsh fighting against cops in demos against the NF in places like Lewisham, London in the 70s. I hope things do advance so that I can get to see that – and a lot, lot more – again

    Comment by Southpawpunch — June 3, 2008 @ 11:36 pm

  15. [...] should grab weapons from the police and use them against the police. Happily, most of the rest of the hard Left saw this childish and dangerous delusion for what it is, posturing by a loonie [...]

    Pingback by Politics in the Zeros. Anti-war, global warming, peak oil, progressive politics » Left wing adventurists slammed by the Left — June 4, 2008 @ 3:13 am

  16. This and the original article at Lenin’s Tomb were thought-provoking. I have no background in left theory beyond some wide and undirected reading (and I must say, when I read Alinsky’s Rules for Radicals a couple of years ago, I felt let down; it didn’t seem to deserve its reputation, but perhaps I should reread it). But I’m currently visiting South Korea, where mass action just won a victory against a government that is trying not only to steer a privatizing, corporatist, neo-liberal course, but to return to the days of serious police violence against dissenters.

    I’m still trying to learn more about the organization — there’s a committee that does a lot of the scutwork — but the present candle light vigils were started by high school students concerned about the resumption of beef imports from the US, and grew to tens of thousands of people of all ages in the streets every night for weeks. Last weekend the police tried to disperse the crowds with tear gas, water cannons, and clubs, but it didn’t work: they came back the next night in heavy rain, and now President Lee’s government is in serious disarray and may fall. The opposition has capitalized on this setback, the vigils are continuing, and the American ambassador is clearly peeved: he says he sees no reason to renegotiate. But if he doesn’t, there’ll be no US beef imported to Korea.

    Since South Korea’s reluctance to import US beef because of fear of Mad Cow Disease has blocked the US/Korea Free Trade Agreement, the government’s concession to the protesters has derailed the FTA as well, and also Lee’s intention to build a canal across the Korean peninsula, privatize water and health care, intimidate the unions, etc.

    The protesters did fight back against the police Saturday night, though 2 protesters were injured for every cop. I don’t know if they grabbed clubs and shields from the police or just threw rocks, but they didn’t simply absorb the punishment, they gave back. I am certainly no authority on these things, but it seems to me that having mass numbers in the streets who keep on coming, works. A candlelight vigil or two five years ago didn’t stop Lee’s predecessor Roh Mu Hyeon from contributing Korean troops to Bush and Blair’s war in Iraq, even after a Korean civilian was killed by Islamists there; but a few weeks of vigils this time shook down the current administration.

    The news media in the West, from what I’ve seen, have painted the Korean protests as the result of superstitious fear of Mad Cow Disease, but even if that fear is not well-founded, the Koreans have done a good job of stopping their government from doing what it wanted to do — which is more than Americans or Britons have done so far. I think the Western left needs to pay more attention to what’s going on in Korea these days.

    I’ve been blogging about this the past few days; click the link.

    Comment by Duncan — June 4, 2008 @ 7:07 am

  17. “My thinking is that the ‘missile gap’ between the cops and protestors has lengthened considerably since the 60s and 70s in Britain.”

    That’s definitely worth considering. The missle gap is still not the issue. The issue is organisation.

    Comment by Roobin — June 4, 2008 @ 8:52 am

  18. im a longtime german metalunion aktivist from germany,who was at countless demonstrations in europe in the last 32 years.in general luis is totally right.but regarding massdemonstrations in germany like the one against G8 he is a little onesided.usually the police comes in huge numbers,10-20thousand with special shocktroops which attac totally peacefull demonstration at will.you have to walk between two lines of heavyequiped policeofficers.even huge crowds often feel totally powerless.you feel like sheeps.so sometimes it is a big exitement to fight back a policeattac with the blackblock or to outwhit them with a inventiv action like at the g8 summit.it lets out your anger and you dont feel like a fool walking around and get insulted and attaced by the state.
    the problem with the blackblock is that they to often decide by their own and often police provocateurs dress like them to manipulate the way a demonstration goes.
    but i would say the participation of the blackblock does not deter others to join a demonstration and is in general wellcome by a overwhelming mayority and sometimes even needed.

    Comment by tian li — June 4, 2008 @ 10:01 am

  19. my misspelling of Birchall was obviously an attempt to confuse the state. However louis I think you fell for a silly attempt to smear revolutionary socialists and in the process missed the chance to have a debate about what the article was actually all about.

    Comment by johng — June 4, 2008 @ 6:28 pm

  20. I honestly don’t think a debate is necessary since it has become quite obvious that Roobin was not really pushing an ultraleft line in the monomaniacal way that the Weathermen or the black block did. He is only what the American Trotskyists used to call a “petty-bourgeois impressionist”. I would describe myself in the same way most days.

    Comment by louisproyect — June 4, 2008 @ 6:33 pm

  21. I can remember a WRP member talking to me about the SWP’s ‘impressionism’. I thought he was trying to talk to me about French painting. But thats because I was a petite bourgoise impressionist. Seriously though, I get the impression that its possible sometimes to be misled by some of the more outlandish rhetoric associated with the recent split. Sometimes accusations get thrown around and they’re not true. Sometimes though they are. I do think there are those who would very much like to see a revival of the kind of politics associated with the eurocoms, and just because you might think the SWP is ultraleft or sectarian, don’t imagine everyone means the same thing when they use those words.

    Comment by johng — June 5, 2008 @ 3:28 pm


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