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	<title>Comments on: Turnips and the transition to capitalism</title>
	<atom:link href="http://louisproyect.wordpress.com/2007/07/04/turnips-and-the-transition-to-capitalism/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://louisproyect.wordpress.com/2007/07/04/turnips-and-the-transition-to-capitalism/</link>
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	<pubDate>Mon, 12 May 2008 12:15:49 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Phil Gasper</title>
		<link>http://louisproyect.wordpress.com/2007/07/04/turnips-and-the-transition-to-capitalism/#comment-23008</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil Gasper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jul 2007 23:19:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://louisproyect.wordpress.com/2007/07/04/turnips-and-the-transition-to-capitalism/#comment-23008</guid>
		<description>"If the later Suras of the Qur’an annul the earlier ones, why shouldn’t late Marx annul early Marx?"

Marx changed his mind about a lot of stuff, but not this, as a quick perusal of the final part of Capital Vol. 1 should make pretty obvious. To be clear, Marx does not claim that slavery and colonialism are sufficient to explain the development of capitalism, but he does seem to be saying that they played an essential role in its concrete historical emergence.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If the later Suras of the Qur’an annul the earlier ones, why shouldn’t late Marx annul early Marx?&#8221;</p>
<p>Marx changed his mind about a lot of stuff, but not this, as a quick perusal of the final part of Capital Vol. 1 should make pretty obvious. To be clear, Marx does not claim that slavery and colonialism are sufficient to explain the development of capitalism, but he does seem to be saying that they played an essential role in its concrete historical emergence.</p>
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		<title>By: Henry Monroe</title>
		<link>http://louisproyect.wordpress.com/2007/07/04/turnips-and-the-transition-to-capitalism/#comment-23002</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry Monroe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jul 2007 21:52:31 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Rowan wrote series 1 with Richard Curtis, all the rest of the series were written by Curtis and Ben Elton.  The Turnip was the fetish object of the peasant character throughout history, Baldrick, played by Tony Robinson.  Despite this very New Labour line-up; Curtis, Elton and Robinson, the final series on WW1 was quite poignant.  Rowan was very funny throughout, most people think the Elizabethan series was the best with Miranda Richardson has Bess (and probably had a better line on empire and the growth of capitalism than Brenner et al).  All the series were like superior "1066 and all that" with 90's political sensibilities.  I'd still rate the Pythons as funnier and more radical in their history lessons, but for anyone who wrestled with Jethro Tull (not the dreadful rock band) in class Baldrick's worship of the humble root was bound to raise a smile.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rowan wrote series 1 with Richard Curtis, all the rest of the series were written by Curtis and Ben Elton.  The Turnip was the fetish object of the peasant character throughout history, Baldrick, played by Tony Robinson.  Despite this very New Labour line-up; Curtis, Elton and Robinson, the final series on WW1 was quite poignant.  Rowan was very funny throughout, most people think the Elizabethan series was the best with Miranda Richardson has Bess (and probably had a better line on empire and the growth of capitalism than Brenner et al).  All the series were like superior &#8220;1066 and all that&#8221; with 90&#8217;s political sensibilities.  I&#8217;d still rate the Pythons as funnier and more radical in their history lessons, but for anyone who wrestled with Jethro Tull (not the dreadful rock band) in class Baldrick&#8217;s worship of the humble root was bound to raise a smile.</p>
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		<title>By: Grumpy Old Man</title>
		<link>http://louisproyect.wordpress.com/2007/07/04/turnips-and-the-transition-to-capitalism/#comment-22986</link>
		<dc:creator>Grumpy Old Man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jul 2007 20:48:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://louisproyect.wordpress.com/2007/07/04/turnips-and-the-transition-to-capitalism/#comment-22986</guid>
		<description>If the later Suras of the Qur'an annul the earlier ones, why shouldn't late Marx annul early Marx?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the later Suras of the Qur&#8217;an annul the earlier ones, why shouldn&#8217;t late Marx annul early Marx?</p>
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		<title>By: louisproyect</title>
		<link>http://louisproyect.wordpress.com/2007/07/04/turnips-and-the-transition-to-capitalism/#comment-22703</link>
		<dc:creator>louisproyect</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jul 2007 17:32:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://louisproyect.wordpress.com/2007/07/04/turnips-and-the-transition-to-capitalism/#comment-22703</guid>
		<description>Phil, it is important to understand that Ellen Meiksins Wood explicitly divides Marx's ideas on such matters between his early and supposedly incorrect phase and his later more correct phase. The Communist Manifesto, for example, is regarded as belonging to the early phase, with its emphasis on trade, slavery and colonialism. Supposedly, he broke with this view after the Grundrisse. Brenner places much emphasis on the definition of primitive accumulation in V. 1 of Capital as separation of the peasants from the means of production, but omits any reference to the chapter on the genesis of the industrial capitalist which does refer to trade, slavery and colonialism throughout.

Here's what Pakistani Marxist scholar Hamza Alavi has to say about this division between "early" and "late":

Wood is led away from that key definition in Marx’s thinking. Instead she mistakenly posits the existence of ‘two different narratives’ in Marx. The first of these she attributes to the German Ideology and The Communist Manifesto. In that ‘conventional model’, (as she puts it), history is a succession of stages in the division of labour, with a transhistorical (sic) process of technological progress and the leading role assigned to burgher classes who seem to bring about capitalism just by being liberated from feudal chains’. This rendering of Marx’s ideas is unrecognisable. (Wood, 1997: 10; emphasis added). The second ‘narrative’ in Marx, she writes, is to be found in the Grundrisse and Capital. That, she writes, ‘has more to do with changing property relations’. We can take this notion of ‘changing property relations’ as a euphemism (that obscures rather than clarifies) for the separation of the producer from the means of production. Further on Wood writes: ‘What Marx is trying to explain is the accumulation of wealth’ (ibid:13) Wood must know that there is a fundamental conceptual difference between the idea of accumulation of ‘wealth’ (which could include such ‘wealth’ as palaces or jewels etc. which are unproductive) and that of the ‘accumulation of capital’ that provides a basis of ever rising circuits of production. Accumulation of capital refers to the conversion of surplus value into productive capital, which sets in train a process of reproduction on a progressively increasing scale. It was the accumulation of capital that Marx’s work was all about. One should not have to point out such elementary distinctions to someone whose work has been celebrated so generously in Historical Materialism.

full: http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/sangat/Colonial.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Phil, it is important to understand that Ellen Meiksins Wood explicitly divides Marx&#8217;s ideas on such matters between his early and supposedly incorrect phase and his later more correct phase. The Communist Manifesto, for example, is regarded as belonging to the early phase, with its emphasis on trade, slavery and colonialism. Supposedly, he broke with this view after the Grundrisse. Brenner places much emphasis on the definition of primitive accumulation in V. 1 of Capital as separation of the peasants from the means of production, but omits any reference to the chapter on the genesis of the industrial capitalist which does refer to trade, slavery and colonialism throughout.</p>
<p>Here&#8217;s what Pakistani Marxist scholar Hamza Alavi has to say about this division between &#8220;early&#8221; and &#8220;late&#8221;:</p>
<p>Wood is led away from that key definition in Marx’s thinking. Instead she mistakenly posits the existence of ‘two different narratives’ in Marx. The first of these she attributes to the German Ideology and The Communist Manifesto. In that ‘conventional model’, (as she puts it), history is a succession of stages in the division of labour, with a transhistorical (sic) process of technological progress and the leading role assigned to burgher classes who seem to bring about capitalism just by being liberated from feudal chains’. This rendering of Marx’s ideas is unrecognisable. (Wood, 1997: 10; emphasis added). The second ‘narrative’ in Marx, she writes, is to be found in the Grundrisse and Capital. That, she writes, ‘has more to do with changing property relations’. We can take this notion of ‘changing property relations’ as a euphemism (that obscures rather than clarifies) for the separation of the producer from the means of production. Further on Wood writes: ‘What Marx is trying to explain is the accumulation of wealth’ (ibid:13) Wood must know that there is a fundamental conceptual difference between the idea of accumulation of ‘wealth’ (which could include such ‘wealth’ as palaces or jewels etc. which are unproductive) and that of the ‘accumulation of capital’ that provides a basis of ever rising circuits of production. Accumulation of capital refers to the conversion of surplus value into productive capital, which sets in train a process of reproduction on a progressively increasing scale. It was the accumulation of capital that Marx’s work was all about. One should not have to point out such elementary distinctions to someone whose work has been celebrated so generously in Historical Materialism.</p>
<p>full: <a href="http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/sangat/Colonial.htm" rel="nofollow">http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/sangat/Colonial.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: Phil Gasper</title>
		<link>http://louisproyect.wordpress.com/2007/07/04/turnips-and-the-transition-to-capitalism/#comment-22699</link>
		<dc:creator>Phil Gasper</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jul 2007 17:10:51 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I don't know what he had to say about turnips, but certainly Marx didn't agree that slavery and colonialism were not significant causes of the rise of capitalism.

"Direct slavery is just as much the pivot of bourgeois industry as machinery, credits, etc. Without slavery you have no cotton; without cotton you have no modern industry. It is slavery that gave the colonies their value; it is the colonies that created world trade, and it is world trade that is the precondition of large-scale industry. Thus slavery is an economic category of the greatest importance." --The Poverty of Philosophy (1847)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know what he had to say about turnips, but certainly Marx didn&#8217;t agree that slavery and colonialism were not significant causes of the rise of capitalism.</p>
<p>&#8220;Direct slavery is just as much the pivot of bourgeois industry as machinery, credits, etc. Without slavery you have no cotton; without cotton you have no modern industry. It is slavery that gave the colonies their value; it is the colonies that created world trade, and it is world trade that is the precondition of large-scale industry. Thus slavery is an economic category of the greatest importance.&#8221; &#8211;The Poverty of Philosophy (1847)</p>
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		<title>By: louisproyect</title>
		<link>http://louisproyect.wordpress.com/2007/07/04/turnips-and-the-transition-to-capitalism/#comment-22698</link>
		<dc:creator>louisproyect</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jul 2007 17:02:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Blackadder? Is this the TV series co-written by Rowan Atkinson? He was very amusing as Mr. Bean, I must admit. I especially loved the episode when he locked himself naked out of his hotel room and tried to conceal his private parts using potted plants, etc. Sacha Cohen stole this bit for a scene in "Borat".</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Blackadder? Is this the TV series co-written by Rowan Atkinson? He was very amusing as Mr. Bean, I must admit. I especially loved the episode when he locked himself naked out of his hotel room and tried to conceal his private parts using potted plants, etc. Sacha Cohen stole this bit for a scene in &#8220;Borat&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Henry Monroe</title>
		<link>http://louisproyect.wordpress.com/2007/07/04/turnips-and-the-transition-to-capitalism/#comment-22693</link>
		<dc:creator>Henry Monroe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jul 2007 16:53:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://louisproyect.wordpress.com/2007/07/04/turnips-and-the-transition-to-capitalism/#comment-22693</guid>
		<description>If your readers have studied the class struggle through the travails of the Blackadder family the crucial significance of the turnip in English (though not British) history would be apparent.  Brenner and Woods will go up in my estimation if you are right and they have truly grasped the turnip.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If your readers have studied the class struggle through the travails of the Blackadder family the crucial significance of the turnip in English (though not British) history would be apparent.  Brenner and Woods will go up in my estimation if you are right and they have truly grasped the turnip.</p>
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